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Wednesday, December 14, 2011

Response to a poster saying prostitution is ok biblicaly

Which the bible clearly does consider a vice and not something that will pollute the land. This is in response to this comment from this post that was made today. The first part post on tomorrow so stay tuned.

http://analyticaladam.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-my-grandparents-met-and-got-married.html?showComment=1323881430111#c57318

And this was what was said about this. Last comment on this post.

There is nothing in the Tanakh against prostitution. Legal prostitutes most certainly have rights and live a good life. In societies like Ancient Athens and Old Japan where prostitution was accepted, high class prostitutes not only had rights but were widely respected. Women should have free choice regarding which path they want to take. What is unacceptable is for women to become sluts, and this is only possible in a society where sluts are supported by the government at the expense of the rights of men as is done in our society.


My response:


Both these cultures have been diminished so that in itself don't suggest this was GOOD for the country.

 On top of this. the bible does prohibit being a harlot. "Do not profane your daughter to make her a harlot lest the land become lewd and the land becomes filled with depravity" (Lev 19:29) Further in the current bible reading of this coming week when Judah pays a prostitute and gives her his staff she is called by the same term here that is used in Leviticus. A harlot. Genesis(38:15)



How can someone live "the good life being a prostitute?" She is risking pregnancy and STD's from having sexual intimacy with different men. I think it is creating a second class group of women who are just used by some men if they have issued with their wife or something. I don't see how they live a good life. I understand there is difference between women who are forced into this which really is horrible and those who "decide' to do it some who could get by without doing it but even so the risks involved in this certainly don't outweigh the rewards and long term not sure women who did it wish they did looking back and it was good for their lives. Those who let the woman become this way she likely resents as well. Male protection doesn't always work.

Of course in this case with Judah he did impregnate the woman (which is also a risk) who of course was his daughter in law who did this because Judah didn't give her his other remaining son when her husband (Judah's son Er)  died childless. Her intention was actually not the normal situation with a prostitute but most prostitutes if they get pregnant have to abort or take the morning after pill and take other drugs so they don't get pregnant which the pill didn't even exist 50 years.ago. So I don't see what kind of good life it is. Some men want some women to be second class citizens so they can use these women to try to gain leverage with women of their own class but that is wrong and have to disagree. In Judah's case it was after his wife died and after a period of time he was consoled and not as some sort of way to try to gain leverage with his wife or something.  Anyway see Genesis (38:1-13). In fact God does see having sexual intimacy and not wanted to get a woman pregnant because you like a woman's beauty as wrong and vain or i n this he didn't want the first child to go to his brother which is the sin of Onan.

Discuss this more on Sunday as actually I saw some other explanation (actually a Christian site) that I thought was interesting on this story that explained a couple of other items as well.


8 comments:

fschmidt said...

I will respond to your points. You say "Both these cultures have been diminished so that in itself don't suggest this was GOOD for the country." There are some characteristics that all productive cultures in history share. These include: a strong religion led by a patriarchal god, an expectation that brides are virgins, harsh punishment for adultery (sex with another man's wife), and social acceptance of prostitution. All of these things have been common to every rising productive culture in history. Only dysfunctional cultures ban prostitution.

The Bible says "Do not profane your daughter to make her a harlot lest the land become lewd and the land becomes filled with depravity" (Lev 19:29). What this means clearly is that a father should never force his daughter to become a prostitute, and I fully agree with this. This supports my position that women should be free to choose which path to take.

I don't know Hebrew and I don't know what Hebrew word "harlot" is translated from and I don't know what connotation it carried in biblical times. Probably no one knows.

The sin of Onan is that he didn't fulfill his commitment to his brother. This should not be generalized into the idea that sex must be for having children. There is no prohibition against having sex with an infertile woman.

The reason that prostitution is so important is that it provides a safe outlet of excess male lust. Without prostitution, men would chase virgins and other men's wives for sex. And this is just what happens in America. In my opinion, anyone who actively opposes prostitution is an accessory to adultery because he has removed the adulterous man's safe alternative. The Bible actually supports this view in Proverbs 6:26 "For a prostitute's fee is only a loaf of bread, but an adulteress goes after [your] very life."

Analytical Adam said...

I've decided to respond to a few of your points.

fschmidt wrote:>The Bible says "Do not profane your daughter to make her a harlot lest the land become lewd and the land becomes filled with depravity" (Lev 19:29). What this means clearly is that a father should never force his daughter to become a prostitute, and I fully agree with this. This supports my position that women should be free to choose which path to take.

RESPONSE: So if the daughter does it on her own it doesn't make the land filled with depravity. The issue here is a "father being controlling" from what you are saying and not misusing sexuality and men then wanting women who are loose with their own sexuality.

fschmidt wrote:>The reason that prostitution is so important is that it provides a safe outlet of excess male lust. Without prostitution, men would chase virgins and other men's wives for sex. And this is just what happens in America.

Uh, that has to be the most convoluted thing I have heard. Nothing wrong with chasing a virgin. There is something wrong of course with a woman that is married to another man. This may benefit you but it doesn't benefit the prostitute in any way who is a second class citizen to a woman that is married and the man has a reason to care for and not just discard after a one night stand.

It also cheapens the way a man views a woman to think she is just there for his sexual pleasure without any emotional attachment. The idea that a man should leave his father and mother and cling to his wife is suggesting a much deeper relationship then just about your sexual pleasure.

Also since there is close to a 1 to 1 ratio of male to female a woman that is prostitute makes it that some men will be unable to get married and have a wife.

I really don't know what to say. And in the bible which wasn't an ideal but when a man had a second wife she was supported as well. The man didn't have some sex slave for himself. That is just wrong and immoral and against what God says in how women are suppose to be treated "especially women from a poor background who are vulnerable to be taken advantage of by a man.

None of the righteous men in the bible engage in wanting female prostitutes and it is clearly immoral and as the passage says it leads to depravity. And the sin is not a father that cares about his daughter that she not be a slut.

Analytical Adam said...

Part 2: Also I have to say your logic is also why you have men that want to enslave other men and have easy divorce and undermine fathers and husbands. That way the women are more available for them to satisfy their lusts. If their wife doesn't satisfy it they have all these other women they can use to satisfy their lusts. Which also is why women who fall for this scam usually have a horrific view of men. Because men who do this really don't care about what is good for a woman long term. Only their own pleasures.

fschmidt said...

I'm glad we are having this discussion. I will answer your points now.

"So if the daughter does it on her own it doesn't make the land filled with depravity."

That's right because most women would prefer being a wife to being a prostitute. Letting women choose for themselves will produce a sensible balance with the vast majority of women choosing to become wives, but there being enough prostitutes available to satisfy excess lust.

"Nothing wrong with chasing a virgin."

There is something wrong if you are chasing her just to satisfy lust. The Bible requires the man to marry her in this case, so the Bible clearly doesn't approve of chasing virgins just for lust.

You keep describing prostitutes as second class citizens, but I don't agree with that.

"It also cheapens the way a man views a woman to think she is just there for his sexual pleasure without any emotional attachment."

Actually it does the opposite. A single man with a strong sex drive and no outlet will be consumed with lust and will only think of women in this way. This will make impossible for him to sensibly choose a wife. If he can relieve his lust with prostitutes, he will be in a much better position to choose a wife based on other qualities.

"Also since there is close to a 1 to 1 ratio of male to female a woman that is prostitute makes it that some men will be unable to get married and have a wife."

Without prostitutes, men will chase virgins and convert them into sluts. Sluts are unsuitable as wives. So the number of suitable wives is actually much higher in a culture that tolerates prostitution. Prostitution is highly efficient because only a few women/prostitutes are required to satisfy the excess lust in the culture. If you look at history, all societies with chaste women gave men adequate access to prostitutes.

I don't understand your comment about a wife being a sex slave.

Which Biblical passage says prostitution leads to depravity?

"Also I have to say your logic is also why you have men that want to enslave other men and have easy divorce and undermine fathers and husbands."

There will always be men who want multiple sex partners even if they are married. This is impossible to stop, so the best approach is to provide a safe outlet so that these men are not motivated to enslave other men and promote divorce.

Analytical Adam, in my experience most people and sources have a mix of opinions, some of which I agree with and some of which I disagree with. There are 2 exceptions, one is the Tanakh which I almost completely agree with, and the other is feminism which I almost completely disagree with. You may want to note that in this discussion, you are agreeing with the feminists.

Analytical Adam said...

I wrote:("Nothing wrong with chasing a virgin.")

fschmidt responds: "There is something wrong if you are chasing her just to satisfy lust. The Bible requires the man to marry her in this case, so the Bible clearly doesn't approve of chasing virgins just for lust."

I concede your point here although certainly in the right situation it is not a bad thing. We know Jacob worked for Laban partly out of his love for Rachel that this part of what pushed him to work for Laban.

Analytical Adam said...

I wrote:"So if the daughter does it on her own it doesn't make the land filled with depravity."

fschmidt responded "That's right because most women would prefer being a wife to being a prostitute. Letting women choose for themselves will produce a sensible balance with the vast majority of women choosing to become wives, but there being enough prostitutes available to satisfy excess lust."

So what you are saying is the depravity is the father and mother not allowing their daughter to become a prostitute and letting her have "free choice". I find that troubling. in that so according to this logic if parents are concerned about their daughter falling into this lifestyle and trying to prevent it they are interfering with the woman's free choice and I guess are "control freaks" who should be punished for doing this.

And I as a guy also if I try in some way to influence a woman in a good way to you that could be stopping her free choice and I should be punished for this. If I do this in the workplace I should be fired for preventing "free choice" and creating depravity.

So back to the main point so you're view is that the depravity is not the woman misusing her sexuality and rewarding men that like this kind of loose kind of behavior and pushing men in that direction by saying sexuality has no responsibly inherent in it but instead the depravity is a "father and or a mother for that matter" interfering with the woman's "free choice". That is the depravity. Am I right?

fschmidt said...

"So what you are saying is the depravity is the father and mother not allowing their daughter to become a prostitute and letting her have "free choice"."

No. It is only depraved to force a daughter into prostitution, not to prevent it. If parents think it is best for their daughter to get married, then it is fine for them to press for this. But the only reason parents would force their daughter into prostitution is for the parent's financial benefit and this is immoral. Ultimately, as the daughter gets older, if she fails to marry, she will eventually become independent from her parents and will be free to choose for herself.

"And I as a guy also if I try in some way to influence a woman in a good way to you that could be stopping her free choice and I should be punished for this."

There is no conflict between free choice and influence. You are welcome to influence women any way you want to as long as you don't force them. Personally, I would prefer if most American sluts became prostitutes because I think this is the only thing that they are good for.

"you're view is that the depravity is not the woman misusing her sexuality and rewarding men that like this kind of loose kind of behavior and pushing men in that direction by saying sexuality has no responsibly inherent in it"

The Bible makes clear that certain kinds of sexuality are unacceptable. These include sex with another man's wife and sex with a virgin with no intent to marry her. Those sexual acts not banned by the Bible are acceptable, and this includes sex with a prostitute. In my view, a prostitute is not misusing her sexuality at all. She is providing a valuable service by providing a safe outlet for excess lust, and she is thereby helping to guard the chastity of virgins and wives.

Analytical Adam said...

fschmidt wrote:>"In my view, a prostitute is not misusing her sexuality at all. She is providing a valuable service by providing a safe outlet for excess lust, and she is thereby helping to guard the chastity of virgins and wives."<

None of the men in the bible that were righteous visited prostitutes.
Further, this woman who is a prostitute is not fulfilling her role to be the helpmate of a man. That can only be done as a wife and some emotional relationship which prostitution is not. I don't see what the prostitute gets out of this as you seem to focus just on you and your wife's needs as if this woman and her needs are irrelevant. And further any woman that is a prostitute lessens the pool of eligible women for men to marry as if the women get married then you don't have your prostitute.

It just seems to me you are rationalizing this which if it isn't ok for the father to turn her daughter into a harlot why would it be ok for her to on her own become a harlot. The only reason I think it speaks in this way because in many cases a women doesn't become a harlot on her own.