Sunday, May 22, 2011

Paternal vs. Maternal Lineage. In general the torah views it by the father.(Part 1) Daughters of Zlepchad

Among Rabbis although not based on anything biblical they claim all that matters is the mother. Nothing else matters and there is no flexibility except of course if a man has a lot of money or political connection as the case with Rahm Emanuel in which Orthodox Rabbi converted the wife. This does not seem to be in the ways of God or just in any way.

Just looking at the world every country goes by patenral lineage which I think is another proof of the fact that God did have rules for all nations that was communicated to Adam and Eve and then to Noah which all nations descend from. There is no nation among different cultures and different languages  that you take the woman's name. God spoke there and said that he would create a woman to be the helpmate of the man.  The feminist would have you believe it is a worldwide conspiracy as men gang together to oppress women. This clearly though shows that feminism at it's essence is very anti-bible and believes it was made up by some male chauvinists.

Some of course will say, well once the Jews received the torah everything changed. That is in basically another replacement theology theory that receiving the torah on Mount Sinai makes prior contracts that God made null and void but then why even have this part of the torah if that is the case. Start with receiving the Torah. Obviously the torah is to add a covenant with Israel while keeping the general covenant with all nations.  

At one point I thought maybe the Rabbis were just preventing men from intermarrying but if women did it clearly they wouldn't be from any of the 12 tribes and therefore not obligated to certain commands and over time they just forgo this but from discussing it clearly the Talmud using some passage and others using others are taking passages way out of context and trying to fit the torah into their agenda but it doesn't really fit at the end of the day. How can a woman be the helpmate of a man if she can marry a non-Jewish man and the man's cultural identity does not matter.

Anyway so in this discussion they tried to prove to me the bible proves maternal line and they mentioned Bamidbar Chapter 27 and the Bnot Zelphchad wanted to inherit the land because their father had no sons to which God agrees. This if anything shows in general paternal lineage but God allowed for some exceptions as in this case if you have no sons it goes to the daughter. Which some societies have taken paternal lineage to an extreme that they are afraid of allowing any exceptions and this effects divorced women as well as they are now considered of the husbands family after the Divorce. This exists in the Korean culture from reading a book about Kim Jong Ill and a family oppressed by him. So all this is teaching is while we do have different gender roles we shouldn't be too rigid in tough situations. There are some situation you could say the kid is Jewish even though the father isn't. For example, this horrible case of a girl who was kidnapped for almost 20 years and was used as a sex slave by this man (with his wife not caring either) and ending up with 2 children. Certainly the father didn't care about her or the children and physically violated her and she had no one to save her so in a very sad case like that you could make an exception. But to claim in general that woman who marry non-Jewish men the kid if Jewish has no biblical basis and goes against the whole nature of what a woman is suppose to be based on the bible. To be continued.


SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Hope Mr. Adam having a good week and cheering up. Kind of feeling bummed out myself. Maybe Mr. Adam would feel happy for a comment.

Well another possible supporting line to your thinking (I'm agreeing with you just adding on some tangents) would be to look at the Biblical women that came from outside. Since the matriarchs, all women took the husband's lineage. Moses didn't change to Tzipporah's background, actually Yitro wound up on our team (wish you'd explain the end of this one I don't get). Neither did Solomon who married tons of women from all sorts of backgrounds. Or of course Ruth and Boaz. Boaz didn't become Moabi by marrying Ruth. Queen Esther is a different one I don't know what to make of but she didn't really volunteer to marry (and I think there's a source he wound up converting later).

The other thing I find odd is tribal affliation is through the man. So if there is no Jewish father, what tribe would a kid be from (less of an issue nowadays since there's only 3 types, so Yisrael is default).

Of course there are exceptions. I personally know of 2 men that converted at different shuls I've been at. Both met women shortly after they finished up and quickly got married. Since the women had established customs and traditions and Jewish family, the guys both took on the woman's family since he didn't have his own from his side. That's kind of an unusual exception, but I think it makes good sense here.

Analytical Adam said...

Well you do know according to the Rabbis if you convert for marriage that isn't suppose to be allowed.

Regarding Esther the story is not as black and white and so great for Esther as I learned it.

Like you said I am sure she really didn't want to marry Achasverus but she had to sacrifice her own wants in a very serious way because of the sins of her people. The only thing I can think of is that since Achasverus had many wives maybe he let her raise her son in her religion and let Mordechai be sort of like the father and not be forced to become the next king of Persia. But this situation is an exception in that a king basically wanted her (and that was because she was more wholesome then the other women who were going out of the way to impress him with their looks) and not the normal type of situation where a woman likes a man from a certain culture in her own right.

Actually now thinking about it I do think I have read that Esther's son became the king (Acharverus was Xerxes) and was a mixed bag at the end of the day and his first alliance was to Pursia and not the Jews or their land in Israel. Anyway know more about this please comment.

But Esther made a very serious sacrifice in that her children the father was not the person I think she would want the father to be.

Analytical Adam said...

Sorry, I misread part of your post. They converted and then quickly got married. Which I know you think BT's and Converts are discriminated against but actually women like men who have limited background because they don't have to adopt to anything really and sometimes the male religious leader is more of the one they adopt to. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if the Rabbi promised these men they would have women to marry which it would be nice if they were concerned about the rest of us men. But actually I am not sure if that is a good thing if right after a man converts he gets married and not to think that these conversions the Rabbis did because they wanted to get some women married but the men that they know they couldn't control easily as a convert. So this really isn't so good from thinking about it to be honest with you.

Analytical Adam said...

I have to be honest that on you tube and other places there are a number of converts that the Rabbis are converting and they actually are just promoting the Rabbis to a degree that Jewish men who were Jewish their whole life don't do this and I think it is because they know the Rabbis aren't perfect but the converts know very little and the reason for these conversion is just for the Rabbi to promote himself sad to say.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

I doubt they were promised anything (at least nothing that panned out) since they met their matches way out of the community. One moved to or 'back to' Israel shortly after. He had lived there for several summers, fell in love with Israel even getting arrested in Gush katif protesting. He met someone through Frumster who had already made aliyah (the ONE case I know of this site working) when he was on a pilot trip when he became close to being eligible for aliyah. This was few years ago, I don't know what has happened since then.

The other guy found a girl out of state when he was dating while on a business trip, one of those traveling auditors. She had been a BT for a long time, like 15 years. I think online dating was used, although i'm not sure. I'm happy they were able to find spouses quickly and get integrated into the community. Sometimes it just happens to work out that way, I don't think either situation had anything behind it except good fortune of being in the right place/right time. Cute stories though.

Anyone less connected is going to have a harder time. I've never disputed that with you. I have friends that are FFB, went to seminary, i.e have the supposedly perfect background, but they are not well connected, very shy, and very rarely go out. And no they aren't ugly or fat. A lot men, even very high quality ones, don't have it easy either, never said otherwise. Some people do get lucky though, doesn't mean they were better.

I wish everyone (including me too) would have easier time and good luck like the situations above did.

Analytical Adam said...

OK. Thanks for the clarification.