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Thursday, January 20, 2011

From last week bible reading from Exodus 13:17-17:15. Splitting of Red Sea, songs of Moses, Miriam, and Deborah.

Actually the song of Deborah if in the prophet portion that is read from Judges 4 as the Rabbi's picked certain selection that are read each week although part of it are NEVER read any time during the year so you have to learn it on your own.

Anyway. So in this week portion God through a miracle saves his people from Egypt and causes the sea to split and they go through and when Egypt tries to go in they end up drowning and we owe God much for our own existence more so then other nations that God may have helped but in a more subtle way while here if it wasn't for God the Israelite people which today mostly from the tribe of Judah would not be here today.

And they sing a song to thank God and Miriam tell the women to sing to God too for saving them having hurled horse with it's rider into the sea. She is referred to as a prophetess which I just noticed now. Also interesting they mention the sister of Aaron not the sister of Moses although Aaron was older. (Exodus 15:20)


The Rabbi's use this to claim that we were only saved because of the women but I don't buy it because no where does it suggest this and Rabbi's like to pander to women and they never punish themselves just other men. Also I don't see any problem here with women singing as some Rabbi's make this a big deal and I don't see what the big deal is. I think it has more to do with what you are singing then singing intrinsically being immodest.

Anyone so the story of Deborah she also sings a song to thank God for defeating the Caannites. She also is called a Prophetess (Judges 4:4) and it mentions her husband Lappidoth and that she judged the people. Which is interesting as it says the children of Israel would go to her for judgment. Not sure if the judges were picked by God or by the people. And they decided Deborah was the most qualified and the men must have decided that. Or even that part of their sin was that they were influenced by cults that undermined a mans authority and that being the case they trusted Deborah more then they would another man. As I guess men picked a woman to judge over them which either the men were really messed up or they were corrupted that they would rather a woman rule over them.

There are some misconceptions that I have read. Some think that Deborah was a warrior and she actually did not fight and she told Barak to bring 10,000 men from the two Israeli tribes of Zebulan and Naphtali.

And clearly Deborah did not use her position to promote women in this type of situation as something that is the norm. Also not all the tribes joined these two tribes with Reuben not fighting and God though was on their side here as I guess they did reform some of their immorality that because of this God let Canaan subjugate the Jewish people.

In fact Deborah says in Judges 4:9 Indeed I will go with you but the path on which you have chosen to go will not be for your glory for God will have delivered Sisera into the hands of a woman. I guess this is mentioning that another woman killed the king Sisera which was Jael. But the general battle was fought by men with Sisera being killed in Jael's tent when pretending to want to protect him and take care of him. Which I guess Barak didn't merit dispatching of the leader of the nation on his own which is what Deborah is saying since he wanted her to do go with him when he should have on his own made sure his solders were being moral so that God would be with us. And instead a woman dispatched of him from a nation that the king thought would protect him and not kill him.

Anything to add? Comment on here.

27 comments:

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

I haven't heard that saved out of Egypt due to women. I heard that it was meritous that women fixed their selves up to be attractive for the men when they came home dead tired from fields so the men would be interested. Kind of sweet I think. Meritous, but not so much that it led to the redemption.

Miriam leading the women, I've heard over and over this is the justification for separate seating. I mean this is brought up on all the time, that it's the women, not the men that decided this because Miriam lead the women in song. Not that I'm bothered by the idea, just the harping on it gets old. Not sure how separate seating at shul morphed into must never sit next to someone opposite gender at a class, dinner, or concert. And certainly never talk to a boy, since the consequences can be so dire. Mr. Adam, I sure hope you are doing OK after all our chatting!!! Maybe online doesn't count, but you and I both read the talk backs, so big trouble for both of us anyways.

I did hear there are historical opinions that kol isha was more of an issue during davening, not intended for everyday situations outside of that, but that’s not how it’s followed now.

Oh call me big weirdo girl, but I'm still really happy you posted for Tu B' Shevat :)

Analytical Adam said...

Well in the Artscroll they quote the Talmud (Sotah 11b) that teaches in the merit of the righteous women of that generation were the children of Israel redeemed from Egypt. In addition to maintenance the spiritual vigor of the nation they had greater faith then the men that there would be an eventual redemption. This from the Artscroll Chumash in Sotah 11b.

The problem with this is the Rabbi's provide no proof from the written torah of this as if the women were more righteous in this way I think the torah would say so. If the women were better they should have sung before the men and a women should have saved the Jewish people not Moses.

Analytical Adam said...

In terms of the women fixing themselves to look attractive to their husbands yes that is based on the fact that the Mishkan accepted the women's mirrors because they used the mirrors to look attractive to their husbands. There was a higher purpose that they looked attractive to their husbands so they would have relations and bring children into the world when things were very hard.

In that regard they deserve credit as the men were being worked to death and they could have been repelled by their husbands yet they tried to look attractive to bring another generation of Jewish people. There are situation like here where a woman's behavior does have an effect on their own people as it did here and at least some of the women (as I know they claim 80% died in the plague of darkness) saw the bigger picture.
In general bringing another generation into the world women have more control over then men and deserve credit when they want to help bring another generation even when the men are being treated very harshly. They also deserve criticism when they want to turn on men for things that are beyond their control.

Analytical Adam said...

I do think there was some separation between the genders in certain activities.

In my own family and cousins all events people sat with their family or they had a table with young people of both genders.

To be honest I don't really think it is the real reason for our problems and if it is true they don't want women talking to men they don't know it isn't because of religion it is because they are too involved with lawyers and they teach the women if a man does anything they don't like to claim they are being harassed or abused. So that being the case there is legal liability if you have men and women together and you don't know the men so they have to exclude men.

Analytical Adam said...

I know End the Madness and Channanya Weissman is big on this issue. But I have to tell you he has censored many of my posts and he called me an apikorus and then when I demanded an apology he refused and said I was harassing him and then I am on the worst of the worst on the purim area.
He has no ability to have a discussion or debate with another man and/or admit he was wrong. I mentioned Deutoronomy 7:3 and just proceeded to call me an apikorus.

Analytical Adam said...

The reason IMO for the problems is feminism which didn't start in this generation. When women love male Rabbi's so much how can they love their husband. With men as well when they are too attached to their mother. In fact I have to say one thing I see with divorced women they keep their sons with them to replace their husband and for a man at a certain point a man has to break away somewhat from their mother and these women actually don't want to let their sons go.

Sadly in general I think the male leaders like to put down men and just looking at the songs we sing none of them are about the love between a man and a woman.

Think about it. We sing some songs that are from Hassidic origins songs by Rabbi Nachman that are commonly sung by MO's and others but no songs on love between a man and a woman. Which is an important part of life. Most real love develops over time.

I have a radio card with oldies songs and one channel is country oldies songs. Some of the songs are really deep and show real emotion and real love. Some that are sung by women.

Which back to the Kol Isha thing I do think it is what a person sings then singing in itself that somehow is immodest. I don't see why women singing in a shul in services is a problem. Some of the women like all these stringencies as long as the Rabbi's at the end of the day tell them they are better then the men and that they are perpetual victims and are helpless which at the end of the day is just a vicious cycle to play this game.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

My issue is that separate seating outside of davening is more rooted in a sort of false piety. Everyone mingles with everyone else all other times, yet all of a sudden people get all in a supervised environment get ridiculous. People work together, chat at the store, immediately outside the shul and even inside, off to the side--all significantly more opportunity for trouble if one was looking for it.

Yet everyone makes a big deal about having separate meals for men/women, especially singles in a clearly supervised environment. That's what I find dumb. I don't think it's had a huge impact as ETM suggests, just that it is more annoying. It ends up reduces opportunities (i.e. a class for one gender deprives the other) for both genders. Male teachers can't go to a shuir if it's women only. Same with women that might be interested in a topic (I don't mean in the egal sense, just have a legit interest).

Ugh, I think technically it would be potentially bigger issues to marrieds got too friendly. That is why I think it is a joke. The so called 'protection' is limited to what would already the most protected environment i.e. at meals or a class around people that everyone knows. Only an true idiot is going to behave badly in front of everyone. They wait until later to pounce.

Creeps come in both genders, men don't have the monopoly on that. You know that and I'm sure you've encountered jerk women. A lot of men either aren't as bothered by it, or even when they are, they get over it a lot quicker and they just don't complain about it near as much though to everyone. Men are better in that regard.

However, creeps that have some influence or come from such families do get pretty much get a free pass. Some people that are held in high regard are the biggest jerks once they think they can get away with it (i.e. after most people leave or a bit further down the street). So I'm not sure how any potential legal issues, if one could be held responsible anyways, would be avoided. I know there are lots of frivilous lawsuits filed, I just don't sit around thinking of ways to cook them up. Majority of men and women aren't jerks though.

I don't think you're an apikorus, pretty harsh to say in the current usage of the word. Some people once considered Rambam one too. That's another issue I have when people bring up obvious insulting hyperbole instead of the topic. Notice, I've never done anything like that.

I do have funny picture of tough NY'er listening to old country music though :) Oh I bet I can list the ones you like too..haha

Analytical Adam said...

I have been to many single events with mixed seating and many of these events have a very low success rate because it really isn't the main issues.

Also there isn't much for men only except for gemara in the early morning or maybe a gemara shiur on shabbos with women can attend if they want.

Some of the women only events the speaker is a man and it seems this has nothing to do with religion they want the woman to distrust rank and file men. They are organized by men.

Hear in Clifton that had the JCC which is closing have hours for women only but not men only.
On Facebook some women some talent contest for women and WOMEN HELPING WOMEN and this supporting making marriages better with Shalom task force. I don't see how women helping women is going to help improve relations between a husband and wife. I have noticed and it exists in so called religious communities as well some very immodest events for women only. So it is very obvious it has nothing to do with religion and that is just an excuse.

A lot of this seperation in gender does not apply to the male leaders as many do talk to the women whenever they want and have women only event with them as the speaker.

It seems to me it is about male religious leaders who want to have the women come to them if the man doesn't follow what the Rabbi says which IMO is forcing their will on the men and when religion has to use women to remain relevant that is not good as real leaders would have the respect of many men and would not have to use tactics like this.

I think it is true in some of the women only events the speaker is a man Clearly some of the events are very secular in nature which almost all men only events are just about learning Gemarah in most cases.

Some events even tell men to stay away and that is not the case if a women wanted to listen in on a Gemara shuir Saturday afternoon.

The bigger issue is just hostility between the genders which I think the male leaders teach the women that they should only help each other and they should distrust rank and file Jewish men and have made up cases where they put down men for no reason to make women feel good about themselves by putting down men for no reason and of course the male leaders don't punish themselves.

If women to feel good themselves need to put down men then that is not a good environment that would create women wanting to marry people who are they used to putting down all the time or men wanting to marry someone that is always going to put him down.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Oh sounds like you're in a different environment. I mostly agree, but I see it insulting to me and my friends though, not as a put down to men. I largely gave up on singles events in the North because it is repeatedly the same exact thing every single time. Both what women want and what men want are soooo unreasonable in NY. I mean they are pretty much photocopied events and same people being snobs showing up. Many you know of better events. I know there are some good males around here, they are just hiding and I don't know what watering hole there at. I'm impressed you have way more stamina than I to keep going. Well, I'm giving until my lease runs out and I'm packing my bags and heading home, so I'll muster up a little more stamina left.

Many of the classes/speaker events around here, I've pretty much found if it doesn't specify men and women or women only, then women aren't really welcome. I don't get to women only events too often because they are often dumb, remember the last one I told you about a few months ago and you got really mad at me even though I though the rebbetzin was smoking something funny.

I know about the women's upcoming talent show. I find it annoying that everyone can go to all male shows just fine, but women are stuck with a much smaller audience and consequently higher ticket price to make up for the smaller audience. Frum male singers can sell CDs but similarly talented women can't. There are boy's choirs, but not really girl's choirs. It's not like it's going to be burlesque show hahahaha.

Every man that grew up with sisters lived through them singing and dancing around the house. It is not shocking issue, it is normal. And every girl's poor brothers learn early on about the before/after make-up transformation, the bubble gets bursted early in life. Only clueless men are going to have issues, but they ruin it for everyone.

Perhaps at a lot of the unspecified events around here, it is kind of unspoken that women will be tolerated and not turned away. But really, being the only girl there (or one with a friend) and expected to sit all the way in the back or eat at table way off to the side with a makeshift wall moved next to you like you are contagious is well insulting. Don't tell me how holy it is, it's stupid and I leave. No one growing up in America is comfortable with the being in the back of the bus scenario. There is one shabbot shuir on the parsha I sometimes go to that the older rav specifically tells everyone it is going to be mixed if women want to come, like it or not, but that is the exception.

I'm guessing you are referring to gym/swimming hours at the JCC? The JCC is tiny here, but mixed I think except for a couple of women's classes (men don't sign up for aerobics anyway). There is a frum gym in the neighborhood that apparently use to have a separate women's area for exercise, but due to lack of use, closed it as a business decision, so the gym in theory is co-ed. Yet if women are caught wearing sweat pants or exercising when men are present, it isn't proper and everyone will know. Give me a break, men see far more walking on the sidewalk than a situation that is clearly in context. So to avoid this, women either don't go or go to a non-frum gym where this attitude isn't present. Attitude which I think is just by a minority overruling common sense.

Analytical Adam said...

I understand at the end of the day making women out to be overly helpless is condescending.

I do think the problems are more subtle though then everyone having unrealistic expectation. The solution is not going to just have men and women sit together any more the having the Dem's and Repub's sit together (sorry. Had to stick that in) I have been to the events and I think the issue is that when you have this egalitarianism and men and women compete for everything why would they want to marry each other if they are competitors. Most of the events who bush the agenda of egalitarianism usually for women to be more like men and this doesn't create an environment that is healthy. Why would women want to marry men if they have been keeping them down.

Analytical Adam said...

SouthernBelle wrote:>I know about the women's upcoming talent show. I find it annoying that everyone can go to all male shows just fine, but women are stuck with a much smaller audience and consequently higher ticket price to make up for the smaller audience. Frum male singers can sell CDs but similarly talented women can't. There are boy's choirs, but not really girl's choirs. It's not like it's going to be burlesque show hahahaha.

MY RESPONSE: In terms of the Kol Isha I find this idea to be silly and to be fair I'm sure all men like some songs sung by women.

However, shouldn't just look at what men have (you seem to look at what men have) as even without the Kol Isha issue the market may not be the same and women may not have as much to devote to it nor want to and there isn't as much demand either. Just because men have an advantage in an area in most cases is not because there is this oppression of women although in this specific would agree the Kol Isha may play a part here.

Furthermore, to use this event to get more sales BY PLAYING TO FEMINIST IDEOLOGY women helping women and this to help marriages and the Shalom Task Force. Clearly this is the male leaders to pander to women that the Rabbi's will be on their side unless the guy is very wealthy which a lot of Jewish men aren't.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE BIGGEST REASON FOR THE SINGLE CRISIS IS that women want to try to do everything men can in their prime years and many men aren't even doing so well and the community likes to focus on women and unless you have rich parents this situation is not a good situation if there is limited money and on top of this the women wants to focus on her job and marriage interferes with this.

Many women don't want men to do well because it bothers them and they see the men as competitors and this is terrible and you can't have a healthy marriage if a woman is always looking at what men have or thinking any time a man is making more money in a certain area to have this dislike towards the community.

So many men are struggling SouthernBelle. So a few men make money from singing. It shouldn't bother you that much to be fair even though I don't agree with the Kol Isha thing SouthernBelle about men making money through CD's. I would bet most of the women also aren't too crazy about the female singers either that have these women only events.

Analytical Adam said...

I can tell you growing up my sister never really sang at all.

The reality is (and it doesn't help you) some women like using Kol Isha so they can use this an excuse for women only events which I know from talking to people it usually is to push some feminist cause when men aren't around which the male Rabbi's know this as well and they don't mind the women always competing with men which of course the Rabbis don't have to worry about is in their profession they don't have to compete with women.

A lot of the women like the idea that they are overly exempt from everything even though to some it is condescending and I wouldn't disagree as in the bible the torah only mentions women not having to go to the temple three times a year and in general they should be involved only that the children come first.

Analytical Adam said...

We did have a Y in here in Clifton that is closing down. They did have special women only hours on Sundays and it was used for other services including some of the problems in this community of Clifton-Passaic with divorce. The Rabbi's work with nonreligious people if they can work together to oppress men and fathers and husbands. It gives them more influence on women if they can get rid of a husband and/or father that doesn't always agree with the male Rabbi.

Analytical Adam said...

In terms of the shuir thing I guess I would agree that a woman would feel uncomfortable if she was the only one there.

I do have to say though that some of the men are also not very nice to other men either. Why do you think I rarely go to synagogue? I really don't feel safe as people are so nasty and if I get upset who knows what they will do.

The most annoying part I find about feminism is this idea that men work together to keep women down. It is not true and if women believe that why would they want to marry someone from a group (men) that are so horrible and only oppress women.

I was involved with a shuir for a while and never invited me and when I once called him looking for a job never called me back. It ended because he was spending more time working. Also they were going to put me in a beginner class and the guy giving it wore very thick glasses and the solution to a problem is ask a Rabbi.

At least you feel comfortable going to synagogue. I don't as I feel it is a hostile environment and why spend my day of rest in that kind of environment.

Since Aug I haven't been to any single events due to them being expensive and not having much money come in. I don't really enjoy the single events and most of the men in the community will get upset at you for certain things that really shouldn't upset them.

Analytical Adam said...

I am sure the environment isn't much better in the South. My cousin lives in Memphis and she married a guy who works for the Yeshiva and is the typical guy that the religious world like in that he has advised on the work world and psychology which men that like to evaluate and put down men who aren't so touchy feely are the kind of men that women like although obviously these men need other men to be the victim so most men wouldn't want to be in a profession like this.

Analytical Adam said...

I have one more question for you. The women have to CHARGE MORE because less people buy their CD's.

So their goal is to make as much money as men. This kind of ideology is terrible. This is classic socialism which destroys an economy which of course uses the envy politics. Who would buy an overpriced CD except a woman that just buys something made by a woman to stick it to men. If these women hate men so much I'm sure they don't mind using Kol Isha so they can have women only events which is what I have noticed they hide behind this and support it because they can use it to have women only events that have no men and tell women to buy overpriced stuff because men make more money then we do.I guess the idea of the man working the field and being the primary breadwinner bothers the women.

If they make less money so what. Don't they have husbands. Oh yeah I forgot they don't want to let their husbands make a living and certainly the male leaders don't want men to have any independence.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Part 1, First all, I have expressed my concern for you repeatedly for not having a supportive community. I do hope that changes for you soon. Hopefully knowing that I care and our chatting back and forth makes you feel a little better.

My argument wasn't male vs. female as much as that the separation is largely artificial and dumb and overall hurts Jewish performers regardless of gender. Anyone with a TV sees shows with both men and women interacting. Ditto for seeing a Broadway show or Shakespeare in the park, even opera or any other secular event which most mainstream people don't object to either. Hey, just riding on the subway often is a front row seat to some interesting show. All normal.

Yet all of a sudden when it comes to Jewish events people pretend that very normal events that they participate in and enjoy don't exist. So why does it have to be one gender or another? That was my reasoning, not a competition. Majority of Jewish performers either male or female are not making the bulk of their income through CDs or a few concerts and stupid chumrahs hurt them. So why can't there be a talent show where the best 10 acts, male or female get to perform for fun and everyone that wants to come gets to? Maybe that means some mixed acts, or the best is 8 of one gender, 2 of the other. There are more male performers than female, so it wouldn’t be 50/50, especially in the neighborhood where that show is held (by YU, which is for men). I’d rather go to that show and I’m sure so would a lot of other people. Bigger potential audience for everyone. Isn’t that more fair to you than just all girl or all boy? All mixed acts (since they can’t perform at all) as well as the top girl acts (who would likely get spots in regular and bigger show) get penalized by having separate and smaller gender shows.

All except for the few major stars that have already paid their dues, musicians have to do other work. Or if they do work in music full time they do a lot of private events, giving music lessons, producing, songwriting, studio work for other musicians. I've known professional musicians in the secular environment and they do have it tough to make a living and scramble for all sort of paying work.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Part 2 Frum would be much much harder due to much smaller market share. Thus the higher cost of making CDs and tickets. There are fixed costs that need to be covered in creating music, so it is going to be a higher price just to break even.. Not performing or traveling on Shabbat sharply limits any secular opportunities/ potential crossover audience, not that there would likely be much crossover (maybe non-relgious jews). Although really, a lot of frum music isn't near a good quality as secular for a variety of reasons.

Men have a slight advantage, but stupid false piety still ends up reducing opportunities for their CD and ticket sales too. They can't collaborate or have co-events with opposite gender, just like there quite a few mixed gender secular acts, many are family. Musical families tend to produce more than just one talented kid and musical people often wind up with other musical people. In some cases, it isn't restricted just to kol isha, but any female musician or performer is off limits. Many of the frum male stars (just like in the secular) do have talented wives, sisters, cousins, mothers. I don't think the female relatives are competing or taking away, if anything they'd be helping. There's a value add in having more than one singer or family act at a concert. Same family members enjoy singing when they are together with family, but they can't share that with everyone else when it could be of commercial interest. You just said that a lot of men would be interested in female performers (just out of liking them, nothing improper), so that is part of a market that goes untapped.

Having separate seating is stupid even with male performer (since automatically female performer means female audience only). A family with kids of the same gender for example...one parent winds up 'enjoying' the concert by their self. Wow, that's really fun. I'm betting that family won't be going to such events too often even if it would be of great interest. You can't take your date or sister or other female relative with you which if you were going to a movie or regular show would be a non-issue. So if you were going to splurge and have a big outing (like a concert/show often is), you're not going to go to the Jewish event even if it would be something of interest. The splurge outing of $40+ tickets + $20 CD and whatever else spent at a concert that could have gone to a Jewish performer (male or female) goes elsewhere. Even a couple dozen people that make the same choice--that hurts the Jewish performer (either gender) end up losing out on what is already a difficult career.

Analytical Adam said...

As I have said it isn't just my community. I have been to other places and it isn't much better.
There are more women involved and for women it is never enough. Of course the mixed up ideas don't make women happy but they can't stop focusing on themselves. Many women complain there is shortage of men and to be honest it likely is true. CW of ETM censors comments on this issue. You don't have to sit on the same side with a Rabbi you don't have respect for.

Analytical Adam said...

Part 2: Regarding Jewish music to be honest with you most of it doesn't turn me on. They have this band macabee's and I really am not impressed with this Chanukah song and it just seems silly with songs with only men especially since some events in life a woman is better about to sing about it or another form of art.

In terms of these boy choirs I use to listen to them a long time ago but there is little soul and feeling to their songs as they don't know what they are singing and some of them are in love with their voice. The few songs about something are usually shallow.

Analytical Adam said...

Part 3: I would agree that this goes too far and at the end of the day makes religion very repressive and certainly God gaves us a mind and creativity to use and clearly just using men and women is absurd and repressive and this Kol Isha is just a custom (and a silly one) at best.

I know some women who like this because they can use Kol Isha as an excuse for a woman only event that without this it would be harder to arrange and their reasoning has to do with pushing feminist causes.

So to deal with this issue part of the problem are people that for very nonreligious reasons like some of these rules that they can use to promote very feminist causes. They hide behind religion but it is a farce.

Analytical Adam said...

Part 4: Having said all this I agree some type of activity it would be appropriate to have male and female actors and male or female singers as both men and women can use their talent for good or for bad. As I said I don't really honestly think that a woman singing is immodest. I think the bigger issue (with men as well) is what they are singing about.

However, in certain situations it may be appropriate to have a male singer in most cases simply because it is an activity that is required by men whether it is in the time of the temple they had song and men were required to show up on the temple.

Analytical Adam said...

Part 5:Anyway sorry I got a little overly dramatic and I see were saying that they needed more per ticket to break even or make a profit if their numbers were expected to be less and not because they want to make as much as a guy as I realize as an accountant you have fixed costs and you need a certain amount to break even.

Anyway look at ETM. Another women only event in the event section given by a Rabbi who is a man like we all are. A lot of women like this though. It doesn't help the situation but they like it. If they didn't Rabbis wouldn't have these events if few people showed up.

Could you imagine if men were going to these "men only" events given by Rebetzin's or let us say a woman that had some kind of degree that gave them a title.
The women would feel offended by it I would think and would wonder that they love these women so much and go to their lectures that they would take these women more seriously then their own wife which I find the reverse to be silly although I KNOW YOU HAVE SAID YOU FIND THESE WOMEN SHIURIM SILLY but sadly some women fall for this and women like being able to have all these women only events (with the exception of the speaker of course).

Analytical Adam said...

Part 6: Anyway this is the event

"R' Benzion Shafier from the Shmuz

LIVE in Queens for WOMEN only!

"Stop Surviving... Start Living"

Women only except for the speaker IMO.

It is all just for us men who aren't Rabbis' or other male leaders with political or monetary clout.

At least it wasn't Moses who had a "women only" song that he sung with the women.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

OK, that ad sort of screams it is a CHAZAQ event. Same ad every week, and they promote the women's events everywhere. They do have a men's program, but I don't know anything about it. They seemed like they are very to the right and they are into outreach. You've probably noticed that outreach organizations tend to have some interesting marketing tactics. I went to one event with Ahuva Gray a while back, just because I have her book and she had an interesting story to tell. If I recall colleciton they leave donation envelopes at every seat, kind of tacky. I'm not that motivated to make a special trip to queens when there are shuirim within walking distance.

I do find rabbis and rebbetzins talking of dating issues to be very insulting in most cases. Most of them married early and have no real world clue. They don't necessarily have great marriages theirselves either. A room full of women and a rav or rebbetzin isn't going to solve anything. I wouldn't see a problem with a Rebbetzin giving a class in say practical kashrut, even if mostly men showed up. Most rabbis clearly do not cook and asking them kashrut / shabbat questions on various kitchen gadgets usually often a lost cause.

Oh and I'd be happy with a normal good guy, sooner than later :)

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>I wouldn't see a problem with a Rebbetzin giving a class in say practical kashrut, even if mostly men showed up

Happening to show up is not the same as the case I mentioned. And you would hope that a man doesn't have to cook because he is single or not married or a widow.
Or that you push feminism only for the men that aren't Rabbis so they cook while the Rabbi's have their wife do it. I know cooking sometimes done by men but even in the torah it is usually more done by women. In fact one of the warning of having a king was that the king would take your daughter away to be a baker.

Furthermore this event is just some general topic that is likely more pop psychology then anything else which I don't find the topic to be very right wing by the way promoting pop psychology.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Well, everyone should know how to cook a few things. Doesn't mean be an expert, just be able to put something together.

I hope Mr. Adam isn't eating out of take out containers all the time or whatever comes out of the microwave :(