Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Does a child from a Jewish mother and a father from another nation have to keep all the Jewish obligations.

Over time sadly our own religious leaders don't even realize this issue. At one point on this blog I really though Rabbi's maybe should make it a kid is only considered Jewish if both parents are Jewish.

Then from a discussion with a woman here I hope she doesn't mind if I mention her name SouthernBelle Rivky and the issue of the Matriarchs being from other families and everything else in the bible that clearly a persons nationhood is determined by their father and all nations clearly the last name of the child is by who the father is which to be fair likely is from the beginning of time when God created man that is how he felt things should be and told Adam and all nations follow this.

Therefore, if a child is father is from another nation clearly he does not have to keep many Jewish laws which are in effect because God saved our ancestors which his father wasn't from that line. He should follow the history of his father and things they thank God for.

The Rabbi's have the right to put fences around certain issues as the reason they had an issue with men marrying a nonjew was this issue that the kid would still be from the Jewish nation and in exile and as a minority and due to Deutoronomy 7:3 and worrying the kids would be taught other practices by the mother they decided to not make the kid automatically Jewish. I think that was their reasoning and it seems reasonable. But if the father wasn't Jewish there was no need to make any rule because clearly the kid is not from the Jewish nation so why should he have to keep the holidays and Kosher and Shabbos which all have to do with being from the Jewish nation and that God saved us and took us out of Egypt with an outstretched hand.

Furthermore, the disrespect shown to men in this situation them not being Jewish and the mother being Jewish in our so called Orthodox world is terrible. The women weren't forced into this they decided to marry a man like this and to pretend that he doesn't exist and his family background doesn't matter is wrong and to be fair other religions and other nations have a legit gripe here against us that we pretend the father and his nationhood and religion doesn't matter when the bible clearly outlines nationhood and tribe by who the father is. You can't punish the children for this. Some Rabbi's want to separate the father and have the kid and the mother removed which isn't right and I think is kidnapping with the Rabbi replacing the father which is just wrong and the behavior of cults. I go on sites where so called religious people are clueless about this sad to say with this whole issue at the moment I think the 1/4 Jewish rule in Israel has more basis then the Rabbinic view that has devolved into this we only care who the mother is and we don't care about the nationality of the father which clearly contradicts the bible.

For the Rabbi's to pretend that in this case the nationhood of the father doesn't matter against all cases in their own bible is itself replacement theology by the Rabbi's thinking they can change the Torah which makes them no better then any other sect of Judaism or any other religion for that matter.


SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Mr. Adam!! You kind of took my idea out of context. I'm going to have to change my handle again, bad enough I'm picked up on google now. Ugh...

I haven't disagreed with you at all here. Jewish home requires two parents. The father is as important as the mother. Otherwise we'd have kids by laying eggs like turtles and not have to raise them. Guess that's not what Hashem had in mind for us. Actually, stuff like education is rabbinically considered in the father's domain. So is swimming for whatever reason and I think acquiring a trade. You'd know this stuff better than I would. But I haven't disagreed with you at all. So I didn't disagree here.

The point I made for bringing up the Matriarchs was strictly in reference to conversions, that's it. You made the statement that in a mixed home (either parent) can bring in immoral ideas so it's a bad influence. I agreed with you in that other post a while back. So your premise is that the status quo of that a kid is Jewish because the mother is Jewish is flawed because they aren't brought up in a truly Jewish home has merit here. Correct, this is your thinking??

Except my point was to bring up another possible, but opposite scenario. In a mixed home, it could be the Jewish parent that rubs off, the good wins over the bad ideas. As it stands now, the kid with a Jewish mom is lucky and is Jewish as is. Even if the kid doesn't want to be Jewish, the rabbis consider that they are, they are stuck. Kid in the same mixed environment, but the father only is Jewish, means the kid isn't Jewish (well except by reform standards). That's tough break for the kid that wants to follow the Jewish parent. You'd agree that's not fair when the household next door raised the same way but with Jewish mother, kid is automatically Jewish, even if there's no interest. You just mentioned the 1/4 Jewish rule makes more sense than the current matrileanal descent. Right??

Case in point, since that Chinese mother book is the topic of the week. You know the kids have a Jewish father. Maybe whatever Jewish ideas (it was stated in the article they got Chanukah presents) they were exposed to, maybe they might think Judaism way better than the Chinese way which as described seemed really abusive. So maybe one of them will want to study more and want to convert. Not very likely, but for the sake of discussion, it does happen, kids with Jewish fathers sometimes wind up wanting to convert. Nothing is wrong with that, it's allowed and good for them.

My whole point of bringing of the Matriarchs I don't think the rabbis should be torturing potential converts for years jumping through hoops. Clearly, the matriarchs weren't bad even though they were raised in a bad environment. It is not halacha to make potential converts do all sorts circus acts to prove sincerity and have to put up with stupid rabbi agendas or have to keep finding new rabbis over and over until they find an honest one. Just teach them what they need to know and get on with life. After all if a rich or well connected guy wants his non-Jewish girlfriend converted, you see it in the papers, they don't get a lot of hassle, it's done and they get married. You said this yourself in another thread.

The converts I know went through a ton of unnecessary stuff, wasted years and now that they are older, and officially made it and are halachically Jewish. Yet they are having a horrible time even getting a date. Basically they are now Jewish nuns with few options. These are high quality people that likely won't get married due to stupid stereotypes. That's really not fair and was why I brought up the Matriarchs, who came from worse environments than today's converts, yet they were able to marry high quality men. This doesn't happen today. Got it??

Analytical Adam said...

I didn't read your whole comment and you are misunderstanding me this time. (We're even now). I was saying that "MY VIEW" changed from our discussion a little in that there was no reason for Rabbi's to deal with the issue of a woman marrying a non-Jewish man (which I didn't think about before) because to begin with the kid wouldn't be considered Jewish since their nationhood would not be considered from the tribe of Judah or any other tribe which has been lost today since Rabbis' in general sad to say think they are more important then a kids father and the fact that we have lived in exile and have had not a very normal existence in exile. To add to that a certain amount of corruption among Rabbi's that didn't start in this generation.

So I am not suggesting you disagreed with me only that our discussion made me realize a few things that I didn't realize initially with this problem. OK.

Analytical Adam said...

Hi. I did read your comment now. SouthernBelle. I did agree with you in the first place (again that are discussion made me realize a few other issues) and I agree that Rabbi's have made conversion in some cases too difficult especially when they have Jewish relatives.

If the father isn't Jewish there is the issue that the child is not from any Jewish tribe that would obligate him or her to keep all the mitzvah's and if the mother isn't Jewish there is the issue that the Rabbi's ruled that in exile that if the mother wasn't Jewish the kid would not automatically be Jewish because they were worried is pagan influences to the child through the mother. But if the kid is raised Jewish and wants to keep his fathers tradition and you do some analysis and see he is sincere they shouldn't make it impossible for him to convert.

There should be conversion in the mother only Jewish as well IMO as for the reason above if the child does not want to keep the fathers nation and culture because he feels it is too corrupt or whatever like any other convert and since their mother is Jewish and her side of the family there is less of an issue of being a fifth column or being a phony convert.

I would like to hear what others have to say as our whole view is absurd today that we have this matriarchal dissent which is simply not true. It is just that Rabbi's decided to create a consequence if men married non-Jewish woman that the child wouldn't be automatically Jewish due to Deutoronomy 7:3 and had no reason to do it with women marrying non-Jewish men since clearly the kid wouldn't be from the Jewish nation which was the new insight I got from our discussion that I didn't think of before our discussion which you seemed to agree with me only I got a new insight from it.