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Tuesday, December 21, 2010

Orthodox Judaism and false "fertility rate" statistics.

About 20 years ago in the shul I prayed in we had this study that claimed that from 100 Orthodox people in 2 generation you would have something like 500 Orthodox Grandchildren and in reform only 10 and Conservative only 50. The problem of course is if this is true Orthodoxy would soon dominate. Yet I see no evidence of Orthodoxy being anymore then 15% of total Orthodoxy and the percent has not changed in the last 20 years and you have theses same kind of things you read today.

Today you read centrist Orthodox have 3.5 children per family and Chasidim have 8.0 children or something like that. And the Orthodox go around like we are right and you are wrong. However, according to the World Almanac 2009 page 681 there 1.5 million conservative Jews and 1.5 million reform Jews. Yet by Orthodoxy a big star. You go down and the note is that Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America does not wish to release their numbers. Why not? I though their numbers were bursting at the seams. I suspect it is because their numbers aren't so great. Otherwise they would release it since they brag about how great their fertility rate is. I suspect the reason they are so immodest about it is because they know it is bogus and they make up what they know is false by being loud about it.

So where did they get these numbers from in the first place. I think it is study by the Federation which of course is not really objective as I have noticed many well known Orthodox Rabbi's (including my childhood Rabbi, Rabbi Moses Tendler) seem to work for the Federations. I know they push some agenda's that have nothing to do with Orthodoxy but please the Federations. Like easy divorce which sad to say the Rabbi's don't want women to have other male influences and the male federation leaders likely have similar attitudes.


So they push the so called Orthodox propaganda that would never pass any honest study which is why in the Almanac their numbers are not released because they are not really high. But where do they get these numbers from. I suspect they work backwards from what someone told me about how many kids in Yeshiva and day schools. That is not an honest study. It someone isn't married or has no kids they aren't going to be in the study which will give you a higher number then reality. Which is the whole point. You have a significant number of Orthodox Jews unmarried with a birth rate of zero. If you don't count them it will give you a very inflated number. To give you an example I went to a single event with a man in which the youngest brother was married with six kids. He was 45 and unmarried and his sister was 40 and unmarried. If you just include the brother you get a birth rate of 6.0. If you include the two unmarried with a birth rate of zero the birth rate goes all the way to 2.0.

In my own class (a MO centrist school that I attended) the birth rate is certainly not 3.5. You have a significant number unmarried and of those who are married you may have a birth rate of close to 3.5. If you include those unmarried it goes way down.

Lastly, our overall birth rates in the US are 1.5. And anyone who goes around with an arrogant attitude when OUR OVERALL RATES ARE THIS LOW should be ashamed of themselves. This means of 2 parents we are only having 75% as many children which means without anything else are numbers declining without a shot being fired and our culture decreasing. A small number of Jewish people with many children when our overall rates are this low is something that should be a national emergency. Not something we pound our chests for. In fact I am upset about those that focus on themselves having many children while doing little to help anyone else.
Our overall numbers should be more important.

It is better to have 5 kids and help others have children as well rather then have 12 kids and have a situation where many others have zero or one. There were always be some more successful then others but the gap between the have and have nots should not be so extreme.

But again THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that our Fertility rates in the Orthodox world are high as it seems they exclude those who are unmarried and have a birth rate of zero and the Union of Orthodox congregation did not want to release their numbers to the World Almanac and of course it is because their numbers are low and they use this false study that the Jewish Federation will publish but in reality our numbers are not high which is why the Union of Orthodox congregation did not want their numbers released.

37 comments:

Evelyn said...

Where do you get your scientific evidence from? It seems that you are an accountant and not a doctor, correct? Yet you always state that the pill is so bad for women, and decreases libido. NOT TRUE! I have been on the pill for many years, for medical reasons (and there are plenty that the pill solves). It doesn't affect libido whatsoever in my experience, and is not even considered a common side effect. What is your experience with the birth control pill anyway? It seems as an unmarried man who follows religion closely, you would be a virgin and it would be of no concern to you. I am also curious how many children you think married couples should have since you comment on it often. Do you subscribe to the belief that there is no limit, therefore upwards of 10 children would be ok, and even encouraged? Thanks for your attention.

Analytical Adam said...

I do listen to Dr. Hoffman on WOR via podcast and he has mentioned that the pill does lower libido.

He also did mention a study in which who did resistance training when on the pill and when not on the pill and the woman on the pill had less muscle gain. A woman is not going to grew muscles to the degree a man is but the pill lowers the amount of androgens. Why don't you call him and ask him about this study. The reason is like all drugs the pill inhibits certain bodily processes and the pill inhibits certain hormones which can't be good for a woman.

In fact the pill is the first drug that women who are healthy have decided to take which wasn't even created for this reason but was a "side effect".

You're bias for the pill (a synthetic FDA drug) is very obvious is because you seem to have some issue with "large" families and just want to have pleasure for pleasures sake and taking a "synthetic drug" to do this. I don't see how it is different then a man wasting his seed.

It is a straw man argument anyway.
In the United States the average birth rate is 1.5. 1.5! In Israel it is 2.3! I am not talking here about 10 kids. I am talking about very low birth rates here and for well to do people who are successful young to only have 2 or 3 kids I can't think is a good thing

My family all my Uncles and Aunts everyone got married relatively young (in their 20's) but no one had more then three kids. They are all well to do.

Also, my mother came from a family of two and my father from a family of four before the pill. So some of it is up to God anyway. This idea they everyone had 10 kids before the pill is not true. And again maybe you should obstain if things are tough and spend time helping others rather then just think of your own bodily pleasures which was created for a higher purpose.

My Grandparents 3/4 came from families of 7 or more. At a time when people had less.

Analytical Adam said...

And in addition I notice the general drug culture (FDA drugs) in my own Orthodoxy that I grew up in. Rabbi Moses Tendler thinks that just popping prozac pill's is fine too. Most of my family I know in my own case at one point wanted to drug me up on one of these type of drugs because I disagreed with something in the family.

So something is wrong when well to do people only want three children and seem to want to put men and boys on drugs and men to make their wives happy have to put other men down. Rabbi Moses Tendler some of his sons are doctors who seem to be quick to put you on other drugs as well. One of his friends Dr. James Israel is quick to put everyone on Lipator although if you don't want to do it they won't force you.

It doesn't seem like relations between a man and woman are healthy when a healthy woman is on a drug just so they can have intimacy with no possible consequences. Even though in my family all my Uncles and Aunts are still married their marriages are based on forcing divorces on others and mistreating other men and being mean and vicious to any man that is older then a woman in a family in the birth order.

Their marriage is based on a common hatred not a common love and that is terrible IMO.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Mr. Adam--One thought I have, you might think this is very crazy and you'll get all mad at me, but what's new. But with all the increased medical interventions, I have to wonder if this is a contributing (not a cause, but additive) factor in having less children. You mention your grandparent families, and they didn't have near the screenings and treatments that are pretty much required today. Yet, majority of people in your grandparents time did OK and had kids fine and pregnancy was looked favorably and normal even when people were much less affluent than now. Ages ago, before then, there were issues about infections and bleeding, but within the last several generations people have known about that so today's care really isn't an improvement over grandparents time. Really it can't be very good or encouraging to feel like one is sick, diseased and in need of so much useless medical care for 9 months plus time before and afer and then expect to go through it again and again. I mean instead of feeling good about having children, making it such an ordeal can't be pleasant or encouraging.

I'd have to say a lot of the "required" treatment are not necessary and are done to bill insurance companies or Medicaid. Other countries that have different systems don't have the same care which doesn't make our system better if it's not needed anyways. I've heard dr.'s and staff are quite insistent and nasty about getting every possible screening done, even if odds are remote, and use fear and intimidation. Really that isn't good if one's dr. is threatening all sorts of bad harm will come about when odds are very low anyways. A couple examples and I have lots, Rh factor isn't an issue if both parents are Rh- (therefore the baby would be Rh-), yet protocol is for all Rh- women are required to get multiple rounds of antibodies. It is completely unnecessary, if it isn't an issue if the father is also Rh-. Take aminio which is used to screen for Down's syndrome--has a 1 and 200 risk of miscarriage or harming the baby which odds are, is overwhelming healthy. The screen doesn't do anything to 'fix' the problem and just worries people. I've personally known 2 cases of younger women, were told that they would have a Down's syndrome baby and heavily pressured to end the pregnancy and yet both were babies normal. So they are fine, but really they went through months of unneeded heartbreak. That's really scary but the happy ending is good.

Repeated C-sections do often limit family size due to weakening the muscles so it isn't possible to carry a child anymore. So with about 30% rate nowadays, that's going to be more complications and longer recovery time. I've heard some women took over a year to recover from C-section although reportedly it is much less. Just some random ideas that could explain a little bit, though not all, of the shift.

Analytical Adam said...

Well I think there are bigger factors then what you mention because most Western countries have below replacement value birth rates with Europe being only 1.4. Europe's culture is not gong to survive. No culture or economy has survived when the birth rate became below 1.9

Regarding C-sections. Yes this country does way too many C-sections. Thanks to scum lawyers like John Edwards who made his riches through junk science lawsuits that destroyed hospitals who would tell a client to sue a doctor is their child had cerebral palsy. And claim if the doctor would have performed a c-section this wouldn't have happened. Of course doctors now to avoid lawyers and lawsuits do c-sections which really were weren't needed. Same with this test you are mentioning. They are afraid of these ambulance chasing lawyers that have caused obgyn malpractice insurance to go through the roof.

But a lot of women like Edwards. The main reason why birth rates are lower is because women spend their prime years in other activities and men also are not doing as well and it is harder for them to support a family and birth rates are such that the cultures will not survive which is why some people think feminism is new which it isn't new. It is just societies like this went out of existence. The factors you mention would not create birth rates of 1.5 among Jews and 1.6 among English speaking Americans. English speaking American numbers are declining without a shot being fired.

Evelyn said...

You have one doctor to back you up. That's not really enough to prove a point. The birth control pill is not always just for healthy women. The pill is used even for virgins who have different helath problems such as PMS, endometriosis, heavy periods, and Polycystic ovarian syndrome to name a few. It has even been suggested that the pill can significantly reduce the instance of several types of female cancers.
I don't know why you would suggest I should abstain if times are tough. My husband and I don't wnat children now, but I'm sorry,sexual relations are an essential componenet to any happy marriage, and not just a procreation only idea. Are you suggesting that married couples past reproduction age should no longer have intercourse?
I do understand why you come across as so angry and frustrated in your posts if you feel this way. You are not in a relationship, since you are looking for a wife. Clearly, you don't believe in masturbation as it is "wasting seed." This is also a normal, natural HEALTHY part of life, it helps people to keep a mental and physical balance.

Analytical Adam said...

Evelyn obviously your only concern your own bodily pleasures as there are a lot of things to be upset about even if you are married and you would realize that not having children when you can is not helping the world in any way.

I have at least point out a Doctor who discussed a study on women who are on the pill and exercize and it how impacts them you haven't provided a doctor or a controlled study.

Evelyn wrote:>My husband and I don't wnat children now, but I'm sorry,sexual relations are an essential componenet to any happy marriage, and not just a procreation only idea. Are you suggesting that married couples past reproduction age should no longer have intercourse?

I have to disagree (it is wrong to just have intimacy and prevent the chance of pregnancy just because you want pleasure) in the sense that God did punish Onan for wasting his seed when he wanted to have relations with Tamar but didn't want a possible pregnancy. My own religion does have a problem with this as this story clearly states (Genesis 38:9). It is a shame you have that you don't want to have children at this time and are so self centered and are married and don't want children. So I guess you don't agree with the story of Onan in the bible.

After your childbearing years is a different situation and if you are just having intimacy for your own pleasure let us say your husband doesn't give you as much pleasure as he once did as he is getting older. Should you get another younger man since it is only about your pleasure.

Analytical Adam said...

Evelyn wrote:>The pill is used even for virgins who have different helath problems such as PMS, endometriosis, heavy periods, and Polycystic ovarian syndrome to name a few. It has even been suggested that the pill can significantly reduce the instance of several types of female cancers.

Then maybe every women should be on the pill according to you since it reduces some cancers although you haven't provided which doctor and any study that has been done.
There are better ways to help certain PMS syndromes then a drug.
I guess you like Doctors that put everyone on a drug for the slightest issue even though all drugs have side effects and that includes the pill.

Analytical Adam said...

Evelyn wrote:>I do understand why you come across as so angry and frustrated in your posts

You must be projecting your own issues to me. I am sometimes angry but not all the time.

And the solution to being angry is not taking a drug or having sex.
That is not the solution to problems as drugs have side effects and sex is with another person that I am not just suppose to use because I am angry. It makes me wonder how you treat your husband although he decided to marry you. If sex doesn't have any responsibility to it and it is just for your own pleasure that can't be good for anyone else but you and I don't know if it is good for your husband if it just for you to let out your anger and that is what you think sex is for which I don't think it is. God does view sexuality outside of the higher purpose as bad. Both men and women become spiritual impure from not using what they have to bring life into the world.

Maybe you should think about others and no much about yourself and not think sex or drugs is for you to get out your anger. Maybe your husband feels this way too I don't know. But that isn't love if you and your husband have relations because you are angry at other people and this makes your anger less so and feel that is the purpose of sexual relations to deal with anger.

You don't even realize in todays time with our low birth rates you and your husband should try to have children instead of just using sex just for your own pleasure and to forget about the world which one issue with the world are American's that don't want to have children even though they are well to do and can do so.

Analytical Adam said...

Just wanted to clarify in Onens case this pregnancy was to be for his brothers name which he didn't want to do so he wasted his seed and God found that to be abominable.

Clearly though Evelyn you want to take the pill so you could have intimacy and not risk a pregnancy. Not for any other reason!!
Like any drug it does have side effects. It doesn't make you healthier. If that is what you want to do I don't think it is good (in the prime of your life it should serve a higher purpose) but at least be honest about it. Some women are concerned about the health impacts and also if it will effect their ability to get pregnant later on if they are on the pill for a long period of time.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Surely, Mr. Adam, you've realized majority of folks don't think the way you do. I've generally thought that it isn't a good idea to put off most things in life due to convenience. Not just kids, but lots of other things in life too. Put off giving to charity too long and one finds that the extra money ended up going for unexpected bills and no one really benefitted. Decide to go to go the gym after work but then decide to go run errands first only to find that you're then too tired to bother. Same I thought with marriage and kids, even more so...The opportunity available now might not be there later. Unfortunately things change, people get sick, accidents, people get older, etc., so the chance may or may not be there.

So if getting married and having children are important, which I’ve always believed it to be, my thinking had been better sooner if possible, than later. Not just for women, men too. I don't think waiting until being more successful is that good either, since successful people generally want to be even more so. It never really ends, one can always find an excuse if they want whether it is having kids, or doing something unhealthy. Even if the opportunity is still available later, one misses out on a lot of family life by waiting until later, say getting to know the grandkids will be limited. But I am hoping, for folks that didn't have choice in the matter, it just worked out that way, things work out for them.

So, Mr. Adam, what's a girl to do when it's the man wants to put off marriage, having kids, etc when there isn't a really good reason?? You do recognize quite a few men, not just women, do want to wait on getting married and having kids??? I think you admitted to being kind of guilty of this when younger, if I recall correctly. I've encountered quite a few, many men and women are older than me have that mindset too. My dilemma, I’m having difficulty with though--since you believe in the helpmate concept, a woman not agreeing to what a man wants here is disobeying them, correct? Do you feel it's wrong to not want to go along with it? Or maybe initially agree for the sake of peace, but hope things would change--although I think this is dishonest, but maybe I don't see it right. What about in hindsight, if one goes along with it what the other wants, but things don't work out?

I know you get mad at me so much for playing devil's advocate a lot with you, but I have thought a lot about this lately. Would appreciate your thoughts here.

Evelyn said...

I didn't mention a specific doctor who thinks the pill is safe, because the majority do. The burden of proof was on you there to come up with someone who disagreed. Most doctors feel there aren't significant risks, and the side effects aren't a problem for most women, if they have any at all. Google it.
You say I am clearly on the pill for my pleasure only-don't know where you get that idea. I am on it for other medical reasons which are none of your business. And it helps immensely!
It is funny that you are a blogger who can't respond to comments other than to argue and make up your own ideas about people. Why do you think there is anger in my marriage, that is ridiculous, and most of what you wrote didn't even make sense.
So you do think sex is for procreation only. I don't see how this is ok in a marriage. What if a couple can't have children, then they shouldn't have sex? If you were married you would know that it brings you closer as a couple, and is an essential part of marriage, at any age. I said nothing about not being happy when we get older, and finding someone younger, I have no idea where you got that from. Or where you get most of what you wrote. The fact is that married couples should have a healthy sex life. It improves relationships. If you were having sex, you would know that. I feel bad for you, no matter what you say, you are full of anger- and is directed at many different people. You say that sex is not a solution, but it does help people to relax, and it certainly puts a smile on my face!

Analytical Adam said...

Evelyn the most questionable study is the result "no effect". That means either they didn't study the issue of they don't want to because the results are too unpleasant. Any drug has some effect as all drugs suppress something in your body.

As an accountant who works with numbers and studies in general I know this.

All drugs have side effects and the question is you feel having sex whenever you want is more important then the side effects of a drug and you are entitled to think that way.

In terms of the rest of your comments I would have to then believe my bible and my religion is outdated which I don't. It is wrong for a woman to waste her childbearing years. There are things beyond a woman's control but for a married woman during her childbearing years not to want to have children and to take a drug to prevent this in my own religion is wrong and an abomination.

I don't agree with your views which you should respect another person's view points. The Bible is very politically incorrect and that is why people dislike Jewish people because of the bible.

We are going to leave it at that Evelyn. I thank you for commenting.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>Surely, Mr. Adam, you've realized majority of folks don't think the way you do.

My response: Well that is why I am writing this blog. If everyone thought the way I did this blog wouldn't be needed. Part of the purpose blog is to share different idea's of important issues that other people are not discussing that I think are important for a society. And hope these idea's that I express here have an impact. When men act improperly it seems you do want them to change and don't use this excuse well that is the way people are. So please be consistent and not have a double standard.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>I don't think waiting until being more successful is that good either, since successful people generally want to be even more so. It never really ends, one can always find an excuse if they want whether it is having kids, or doing something unhealthy. Even if the opportunity is still available later, one misses out on a lot of family life by waiting until later, say getting to know the grandkids will be limited.

My response: That is nice in theory SouthernBelle but in reality some women are not interested in men that at the moment don't have a healthy way of making a living and don't have parents to support them in the mean time. Are you gong to say that some of the men in the bible who got married later did this intentionally. That is one advantage of being a woman SouthernBelle is that men sometimes would love to get married young but can't. To think that men who got married a little older or even a lot older and had children did this intentionally SouthernBelle again this envy of men is playing out again. That is one area where women are lucky since they can bear children internally other external factors that effect men are less important. Instead of seeing this you want to look that some men are able to marry younger women and have a family. I know it bothers you when men marry younger women and I don't think it is the perfect ideal but having said that it happened in the bible and the women were considered righteous. They didn't have a problem with it as they felt the man deserved to have children and to give the man who was a righteous man this opportunity who they can see ending up this way because they stood up for something that wasn't the norm which made it take longer to get established to some degree.


You don't seem to understand that women many times don't want to marry a man who has limited financial ability at this time and again to want to blame the man and think he is just being selfish which is just not true.

A man and a woman who are both 25 and don't have parents who can support them and the man at the moment is struggling greatly to make a living and doesn't have connections may not be the best person for her at this time if she wants to have a family and want the children to be able to be supported.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>I don't think waiting until being more successful is that good either, since successful people generally want to be even more so.

Again this is nice in theory but in the real world if a man has limited success a woman would rather be married to man that has shown some success because if he has limited success and doesn't have parents to fall back on it can have real consequences if he has no successes.

Also it would be nice you can give credit where credit is due that a man that has some real successes and worked hard at this would make a good father. Instead you act like this means well they can't appreciate their success. Maybe you can't but don't project to them. You complain that men don't work and now when they are successful this you can't appreciate either.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>So, Mr. Adam, what's a girl to do when it's the man wants to put off marriage, having kids, etc when there isn't a really good reason?? You do recognize quite a few men, not just women, do want to wait on getting married and having kids??? I think you admitted to being kind of guilty of this when younger, if I recall correctly.

My response: Why are you concerned about another person's guilt. You are unreal with you lack of compassion and thinking men have it easy. I have said that when I was younger I didn't make enough or have any type of experience that anyone was interested in me. No one is going to be interested in a man that makes $10 an hour doing data entry work which is what I made in my mid-20's. I myself didn't feel I could get married either. Am I wrong for that. NO man can get married making $10 an hour doing data entry work when my own parents were being very harsh to me.

I wonder is you feel any guilt about your own behavior which is none of my business anyway. You have to answer to God not me.

Maybe one day God will show you all the things men have to put up with since you are always looking at what men have and think they have it easy and being upset if a women marries an older man thinking the man just had a good time and then decided to settle down one day which isn't the case with many men when this happened.

If a man doesn't have any way to support a family being in his mid 20's or being attractive is not really going to support a family and most women aren't going to be interested. If a woman is in her mid 20's since if she is healthy and attractive which means she can bear and carry children she should get married. To ask women to marry men their own age who can't support them and have no chance in the near future to do this is absurd.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

I think anyone acting inappropriately should change whether they are man, woman, child, pet, space alien, etc. So I don't think there is a double standard. If there is, point it out because I don't see it. I don't have a problem with other people dating much older men or vice versa if that is what they want. I and my friends do have a preference that should be respected. Some people don't like short people, certain physical builds, personalities that I wouldn't mind at all. I.e. There's no real justification for not liking someone that isn't tall, but you do know that is a known preference a lot of people have too that makes less sense to me than age. I am weird and couldn't care less on that. I'm not particularly fond of Hassidim for a variety of reasons either, but my preference does not mean I'm envious of them or don't want them married. Just not to me :) So it's not like there's a huge checklist here. But the pickier people are (and this includes me and my friends too), the harder it is going to be. This is the trade-off.

If my friends, and this includes you too, wind up with someone older/younger and is happy, then I am happy for both of them. Any marriage between two good people is a blessing. Even if it is different than what I would prefer, it doesn't matter and really none of my business. For the record, I have met people a bit outside my age preference if other characteristics seem favorable. BUT really, I don't think I'm being unfair in not wanting someone that I can't relate to (i.e. the really old chassidishe guy who doesn't work--those suggestions do get old quickly). I'm sure you've met people that were perfectly nice but weren't for you too, maybe they were older, not attractive to you, didn't like their personality, whatever. That doens't mean you were envious of them or didn't want them to get married, does it?? So whatever you and anyone else is looking for, whether it's someone younger for reasons you have stated or a certain look then I wish you success and really not my business. I'm cool with that, but I really don't understand why you are mad at me (and likely my friends) for having a preference for myself. How is that a double standard?? I'm sure you don't consider every person suggested to you either!!

I am glad that you did say SOME women as I was never really into how much people made other than that they worked. Maybe that is my problem. I do think fiscal responsibility and trying to live in one's means is far more important than just straight how much one makes. I know people that make far more than me, yet they have huge credit problems. That would bother me more than making less and living in one's means. Income can come and go and it can vary widely do to a number of factors. I doubt you have an issue with women working from home or part-time either--it would seem to fit in with your concept of helpmate. I am not jealous of people that have done well. Good for them.

I don't think ALL men are deliberately delaying getting married. I'm sure you don't think ALL women are single and loving it either. I do know from personal experience some men have, just as you know some women have delay marriage and family due to careers. You do recognize all of my younger dating was secular and different thinking applied there. The thinking the frei velt is to get more established first, cohabitate with various folks for fun, and get married much later. I wasn't into that line of thought then which didn't make me popular and I'm still not into that thinking now.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

A lot of minimally skilled jobs out of town do pay $10 a hour, especially out of college in one's mid 20s. I do know people with retail, customer service, and hospitality jobs that do not pay much they got married early.

My older brother was one of them--only mentioning him as I do personally know it is possible. He also does a lot of landscaping and handyman work on the side and does OK with that, but he does work hard and no way has it easy working basically a job and then some. Of course, living on 20K a year, does mean having to live a much lower standard of living and sort of rules out NYC.

Maybe I am absurd as I you think I am, but I would be OK with that actually. I don't think men have it easy at all. I do think it is much easier for both men and women to be with someone supportive than alone. That is not saying that either gender has it better or easier.

However, I am happy that you are doing better these days in a career hopefully you like better than data entry. You were clearly worth more than $10, just needed a good opportunity and probably some encouragement too. It's not like you were playing video games. I can appreciate and respect you for using your skills and improving yourself.

Analytical Adam said...

Just wanted to add here for anyone who is reading this blog since part of it is for me to try to help myself and hopefully others as well I have had two long term jobs in accounting since 2000 which to be 27 and get your first job in your field is old but it is what it is. I worked doing auditing for municipalities for a Public CPA firm for 2 years and got downsized and the person wasn't very nice but it did wake me up to certain things when I lost that position at 29 which was the best thing for me in that municipal accounting is very limited (also I became a little arrogant when I passed the CPA as it still doesn't mean you know everything or know how to work with others) and it took a few years to get another long term position (since my knowledge was in Muni accounting) which I got one from late 2005- early 2010 for 4 and a half years in an area's that my skills are needed to a much greater extend.


But dating I have had those who dumped me because I was between jobs or they thought I wasn't established enough. Maybe they were wrong but it is something I don't have control of if a woman doesn't think I am established enough and in some cases if they don't have well to do parents they have to decide does the man have enough skills to be able to make some kind of living and is he mature enough to take this responsibility which I am willing to help him put his best foot forward but does he have enough skills to do this. A woman has the right to ask these questions and clearly in some profession the man is going to be a little older if he is a Doctor or something unless the family can support him in the meantime which some families can't afford to do.

I do wish growing up I had more responsibilities so I didn't have to learn in my late 20's and beyond what it takes to be someone that tries to make a living by recognizing you have to provide something. I can't change though what is and hope more focus is on helping people be mature and stop making it impossible for men to work which in the end helps no one.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Well thanks for sharing more about you. I still think you are amazing :) How come you don't have a single twin brother for me!!! Bummer. I don't see the big deal that you didn't start in your field until 27, but that was a long time ago. You were working before then, so it not like you were lazy. It sounds like you needed a bit of direction and took a little while, not a major issue. I didn't realize accounting was so specialized, I kind of thought it wasn't so industry specific, I had no idea until you told me. And it OK to be a bit proud when you accomplish something. I bet it was hard to study and it felt really great to have new initials after you name, right Mr. Adam, CPA?? :)

Sounds like you've wound up dating a few spoiled princesses. Don't you think you deserve better than that? Or maybe that is what you are attracted to and you are stuck. I don't see a problem if someone is between jobs or temporarily underemployed, especiallly in this market, a lot of people are. Jobs come and go, hopefully not true with spouses.

Analytical Adam said...

I just seems you and your friends are picky for the wrong reasons.

If you are in a community with so many strange men I have to believe that you are attracted to communities that want men to be strange and don't say anything to them and clearly mistreat the men which I know it benefits women to keep men down since many women are competing with men today rather then compliment them.

It should matter to a woman if a man feels he is suppose to try to support a family (maybe the women helping but him taking the more dominant role) and how he goes about doing this. If woman don't care then they really don't care much for men obviously.

A man certainly isn't suppose to be a woman's girlfriend and if that is what a woman wants she clearly is not fit to get married.

Regarding my CPA I did study hard for it but I do have to say men have had to do much more to succeed and they deserve respect for it. I have noticed I wrote a number of posts on men and women who provided something (some who didn't succeed at first) and you had nothing to say about it.

The religious world the men are not innovative IMO. It is sad but that is the truth. Women should be bothered by the way the community treats men and doesn't allow them to use their brain and doesn't help them develop skills that would be useful to the world. If they are not they are part of the problem and they are part of the reason why men are like this because they support men being in another planet because it benefits them and they don't like the role God gave to men.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Well, I do read your postings even if I don’t comment, I like them. Many times I don’t know what to say, especially when it seems like you are mad at me over another post comment. I got the impression that you get annoyed if I don’t have anything original to add. Sometimes I summarize and add stuff I know to see if I understood it right, even though I’m sure you know already. I mean if I’ve heard it, it is something you learned in cheder. You often comment that I’m not original when I do that, but I’m not trying to be. I can’t be brilliant all the time like you :) I don’t like to point it out minor stuff since you get flak already (and no need to point it out), but sometimes it looks like you left out a critical word like *not* which of course completely changes the meaning of a sentence and overall context could be tricky. So I’ll paraphrase to make sure and the intent was correct but without being rude pointing it out. Kind of sneaky I know.

As far as dating in my community, I realize no matter what orthodox community, I'm in, I'll pretty much be at the very bottom of the caste system and who wants to be with ‘that’ as one is called. I have visited other places and the mark is there. Even if it’s not pointed out directly, one can tell by how people treat people. Even my ffb friends that have non-frum relatives, have BT parents, or grew up out of town and therefore went to public school, don't fare much better in their dating options..they do a little bit, but not much. At least I knew what I was getting myself into, my friends, not so much, but it is a cruel feeling. It is what it is, I know such is considered a spiritual defect, let's not sugarcoat it.

Many of my friends were rejected by SYAS as no shadchan felt they could work with us, ouch! At least to their credit, they didn’t take money and do nothing. If anything a person that has a perfect background probably wouldn't be able to relate to someone that doesn't. The few times that I’ve met people bypassing ‘the system,’ either they guy clearly wanted to play around or there was pressure from the guy’s family and friends about what trash and how no good from folks that knew absolutely nothing about me. Indeed, it does sting to be reminded about one's inferior status when being redt very old men or lazy men that are 'saved' just for 'us people.'

Yet our peer ffbs girls with perfect seeming backgrounds just casually toss aside men we think are really good working guys our age and we would absolutely love to date, yet no matter what we aren’t given the chance. Of course to be fair, it’s hard to say what’s actually going on since we don’t know whether it’s men or women being picky or both (probably a combination) but this is what it appears from our vantage point.

I realize you have a different situation so our discussions back and forth are apples and oranges. Still I do appreciate what you have to say and I’m so sorry it is not so rosy for a nice person like you. It does help a bit to know not everyone has it so easy. Again I feel your situation is more unfair than mine--I could have stayed secular. You and my friends, who are all nice people that got the short end. Hoping you will met a nice person soon.

However, outside of the dating aspect, I do like the geography of the neighborhood I'm in and how everything is very close by. That's new to me. After having trying out a few snobby shuls, I go to one where there's a nice mix of people, from black hatters to non-religious Russians and traditional Sephardim that once in a while go to shul. Old holocaust survivors that greet me with a hug to cute little kids that run around. Everyone is cool with everyone else, but there really isn’t that many people that would be able to date. This is kind of like a lot of Southern communities where there’s a big mix of Jews simply because there’s not that many Jews total, so there’s going to be a lot of variation at a shul. So maybe that makes sense. Have a good shabbos :)

Evelyn said...

I am just trying to learn about your views, and thank you for being kinder in your last reply. It is easier to show someone respect when they don't snap at you, or pass judgement based on no real knowledge of you as a person.
I was just sincerely wondering if your religious beliefs are that an infertile couple should not have sex, or a couple that is past their childbearing years.
If a woman doesnt get married until she is in her 50s for example, she should expect her marriage to be sexless based on those beliefs? Or if a couple finds out that they are infertile, and decide to adopt, they need to stop having sex since they know they cannot procreate?
I really am curious about this, and thank you in advance for your reply.

Analytical Adam said...

Evelyn,

Of course not Evelyn. Older people should enjoy sexual intimacy.

All I am saying is when someone can have children and is in their prime and most vigorous years to try to prevent being able to get pregnant and only focus on your own pleasure I think is misusing the higher purpose God intending intimacy to be in your prime years. God only gave women so many years they can have children and usually a fertile woman is more attractive then a woman during or after menopause which if sex is just about pleasure what happens when you get older and are less attractive.

Anyway, (a little repetitive) I was trying to say though if sexual intimacy is just about one's pleasure then as we get older and have lower testosterone for men and estrogen for women then should we find another mate that is younger and his higher level of hormones and will give us more pleasure if that is the only purpose. In fact when sexual intimacy is used for the right purposes I think it helps the love between a husband and wife as they get older and have other reasons to love each other then looks.

God only created only a fraction of life where you can have children. To waste it when you are young and attractive and can have children clearly the God in the Jewish bible finds wrong and inappropriate. In our prime years we should being vigorous for higher purposes then just our own pleasure. Wouldn't you agree?

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle,

I will comment on a few of your points.

Southern Belle wrote:>Many of my friends were rejected by SYAS as no shadchan felt they could work with us, ouch!

My response: Maybe I will right about his sometime. I was kicked off SYAS because one woman didn't like the reason I was declining some profiles and she decided to just disable my account. I forgot her name. A single woman on SYAS works with the matchmakers forgot her name(who by the way have to be married) and she is given a lot of power on SYAS even though she herself is unmarried and a very disturbed individual form what I can see. She wanted to get back at me that I complained to a matchmaker that her profile sounds like a resume for a job not a profile to help people get married. For that (plus she didn't like the reasons I rejected some profiles) I accepted at least 35% from what I remember. It was to get back at me from what she wrote to me and claims none of the matchmakers can help me which she only knew a few one who didn't like me. So SYAS is seriously screwed up and they have done a lot of bad things to men as I'm sure that SYAS has very few men that actually have a personality because this single woman at SYAS will kick you off if you say anything that upsets any of her matchmakers she is friendly with.

SYAS is seriously screw up.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle,

You have spoken about how you are the lower end of the caste system.

I don't even exist. At this point I trust almost no one in the Orthodox world.

I don't think they are a lot of good men in the religious world anyway. They only want men that fit certain political agenda's that have nothing to do with the torah and some communities they like to have BT's who fit an agenda over FFB's because the FFB's know too much and having personal experience community they can't easily be manipulated for a certain agenda.

So again your friends and you should see that it isn't just you and it doesn't seem you and your friends understand that again there is a reason why a woman should be the helpmate of their husband and that is it isn't so easy for them if they are a good man that isn't just a shill for some evil agenda.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle,

Also, I was not a good student other then math. I was put in a learning disabled class in high school for a year and as I said my parents picked on me and I was the scapegoat in the family. My mother didn't like me because she had issues with men and certain issues in the religious world thinking men get better treatment although punishing me for this was wrong. My father didn't like me because he wanted a more outgoing son and I was a little on the introvertish side and would compare to other relatives. On top of this I was the oldest with a younger sister.
I was the perfect scapegoat that by the way the communities loved when some boys are picked on as to this day the shul I went doesn't give a hoot. They don't care at all.

And even if I was part of being intelligent is realizing YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

I don't have a place to go. There was one shul I went to also that had from different backgrounds but still some liked to put down men and I don't know why but for some reason this shul doesn't return my emails anymore. So again. I have NOWHERE TO GO. That is why I am writing this blog.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle,

I don't know all the answers and as I said part of intelligence is realizing none of us can no everything and see every angle. It is impossible and that is another thing that turns me off. This idea that we need people that know everything. None of us do. All of us can learn from others.

Analytical Adam said...

Anyway, it is what it is. I don't exist where I live and there are very few single men who trust anyone in the area.

I went to a shul that is not walkable for a Shabbas and on Yom Kipper and they are a little nicer but it was somewhat similar although not as bad of putting down men all the time.

One woman (her husband) had me there for Shabbos and her husband passed away two years ago she herself has daughters that are married and switched to Orthodoxy although there son isn't married (usually politics the women are good the men are bad in the family situation) and they wanted her is some Orthodox shul and it is a little more laid back (they have a Chabad Rabbi even though they aren't Chabad)even though I actually don't think good about Chabad anymore and their male Rabbi's.

I guess she is upset that I didn't attend when she had shiva although I did try to go and couldnt' find the place on the last day and I wished her a happy new year and apologized for it. And wished her a happy Yom Kipper and to be sealed for a good year.

But if her own son isn't married it likely isn't me.

I have wondered why God has allowed bad things to happen to the Jewish people and this includes me. I believe it is because deep down many of the people really are full of various hatred beneath the surface that are inappropriate and make the God of Israel look like some sort of hateful God by the way Jewish people behave.

But just ignore this. I don't exist according to many so called religious people. It isn't even being about being a low person in the system. I don't even exist in the system at all.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

I'm behind this week...but wanted to say I'm so sorry you feel bad. What I can I do to help you???

You obviously do count and exist, and you are important, otherwise I wouldn't talk with you. And you are being super modest when you know you are at close to the top of the caste system, but you are being too polite. So tell me how to make things even a little bit better for you :)

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Whoa, no more moderation!!! Time to comment to extreme..hahaha...that was really annoying anyways and it often wound up gobbling up lots of my brillant ideas.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle Wrote:>You obviously do count and exist, and you are important, otherwise I wouldn't talk with you. And you are being super modest when you know you are at close to the top of the caste system, but you are being too polite.
So tell me how to make things even a little bit better for you :) <

Well Thanks Southern Belle. Maybe to you but to be very honest with you no one has been interested in helping me in any way in the so called observant world. Not job wise and not in any other way with very few exceptions. Certainly not in setting me up with anyone. The men I see them help or usually not good men from my own vantage point. Maybe I am jealous but I don't see them having good qualities as I do look at the bigger picture other then myself and if a guy is a good man I am happy that a woman is marrying them.

Analytical Adam said...

Southern Belle wrote:>Whoa, no more moderation!!! Time to comment to extreme..hahaha...that was really annoying anyways and it often wound up gobbling up lots of my brilliant ideas.<

Not really. Only in one or two instances that was the case. Sometimes you would post multiple times. I know it sometimes gives you this google comment "comment too long" but it does go through. Because afterwords it will say comment needs to be approved by owner. I have had this happen to me but it does go through. The only time if it is a really long comment and then it will say it is more then the max of characters.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Well, I certainly can't change the system, but if there's something that would make things better for you, let me know. I obvious don't know the secret on how to find someone nice either and despite what you think it isn't from a lack of effort or being frivolous. So into cyberspace I go!

Maybe you can come for a shabbas if you wanted something different but still low key outside your normal environment. Would that make you feel a little better?

Analytical Adam said...

Thanks for the invitation. One thing is because of my situation during tax season I do work on Saturday. It is either that or not work at all which I don't think is an option as places that do work on Sunday and not Saturday don't want to hire me.

I would love not to have to do this but at the same time it is standard in taxation unless you work for a Jewish company to work on Saturday and a long time ago I called a group and they told me if it is hard for them to accommodate they don't have to.

SouthernBelle Rivky said...

Well if you are traveling anyways, come for dinner or melave malkah or something that way you can enjoy a little bit of shabbat and not feel so bad. A lot of people's grandparents when they first came here had to work part of shabbat and no one went around hating them. Doesn't bother me and I don't go around telling anyone.

I told you a few times before, but I bet you'd you do very well if you started your own firm, don't you think so??